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Topic: Changing canon characters' forms. (Read 312 times)

helium lost
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Changing canon characters' forms.
« Thread Started on Jul 19, 2006, 3:24pm »

So, as a quick overview for anyone not familiar with Avatar, the main character is Aang, a twelve-year-old boy who, well, has all the characteristics of a twelve-year-old boy: immature, buckles under pressure (which he has a lot of), etc.

To continue...

I have a friend on FF.Net/LJ named Anonde, who is a very capable author, but there's one thing that bugs me about her—she changes the characters' forms to suit her needs.

Her whole purpose of writing all the Aang-centric fics was to show that Aang can be paired up with many different characters, seeing how he doesn't get much attention in the fandom, despite the fact that he's a main character. And I think that that's a pretty good idea, entertainment-wise, but the thing is, she makes him older, and effectively strips away his canon personality.

So what's the point of pairing him up with different characters if you're not going to keep his original personality? [image]

Just replace his name with another name, like 'Bob', and you'd effectively have a character x OC fic, really.

Don't get me wrong—Anonde has done a great job justifying his personality changes and all, but he's still an essentially different person than the canon.

Also, in the most recent episodes of Avatar, a couple new character were introduced—Wan Shi Dong, an owl-shaped spirit of knowledge, and Professor Zei, the head of anthropology at a university. To make a long episode short, Zei and co go to Wan's library, where Zei is totally taken aback by all the knowledge and refuses to leave, even as the library is collapsing. Anonde's taken the challenge of writing a fic in which Zei and Wan have a romantic (I'm guessing) relationship, but the thing is, she's making Wan human.

[image]

I mean, I'll read it, because I love her witty dialogue, but I personally think it'd be ten times more fun if he kept his owl form, and things progressed from there—I love seeing things develop and grow.

All this, really, reminds me of making Kurapika a girl in the Hunter fandom—I'm guessing most authors are just trying to avoid yaoi [image]

Only, they don't establish the change half as well as Anonde does.

- hl

« Last Edit: Jul 19, 2006, 3:25pm by helium lost »

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Yukitsu
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Re: Changing canon characters' forms.
« Reply #1 on Jul 20, 2006, 1:48am »

So Anonde changed the age to justify sticking Aang in a mature relationship? I sort of see it like I see some KilluaxGon fics, where the boys are bumped up a few years into teenager-dom to be able to use the Plot Device called hormones and maturing emotional abilities. o.o That, and not many people are willing to write (or read) about kids participating in a mature relationship at that age. [image]

I have to admit that if it's Killua and Gon, I just let it slide. Maybe it's because their personalities are already fairly mature for their age and they won't be too different in character despite the change in age.

[image]

It's taking the convenient and easy way out of plotting, I guess. If you stick a character with that specific condition from the start, it's definitely easier to write. Though I have to agree with your point that it loses it purpose because of the complete turnaround of personality, since if I understand correctly, being a kid essentially makes up most of Aang's personality.

[image]

-- I think I just confused myself there. [image]

« Last Edit: Jul 20, 2006, 1:53am by Yukitsu »

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Re: Changing canon characters' forms.
« Reply #2 on Jul 22, 2006, 3:50pm »

Quote:

Her whole purpose of writing all the Aang-centric fics was to show that Aang can be paired up with many different characters, seeing how he doesn't get much attention in the fandom, despite the fact that he's a main character. And I think that that's a pretty good idea, entertainment-wise, but the thing is, she makes him older, and effectively strips away his canon personality....

Don't get me wrong—Anonde has done a great job justifying his personality changes and all, but he's still an essentially different person than the canon.

Tricky one here. I'd actually be ok with this Aang changing his personality to be paired off with someone else if the progression of events in the fanfic cause Aang to develop a character that is compatible with said other character.

Emphasis for me is the "great job justifying". My ethos is that anything is fanfiction is possible so long as it's well reasoned and justified. Deviating from canon is no problem for me - make Hisoka sane if you want - I just care whether it's done in a believable fashion. A rather primitive indicator of whether something's going to be 'well justified' or not, for me, is to go look at the word count. Take "A Hunter's Love Story - the concept of HisokaxMachi is actually really fun to play with, but to have Hisoka and Machi get together in a believable way in under 10,000 words is quite impossible.

Quote:

Just replace his name with another name, like 'Bob', and you'd effectively have a character x OC fic, really.

But if you take into account the fanfic development and the chain of events which made Aang into this particular character, is he really 'Bob', or 'Aang-who's-been-through-this-this-and-this?'

Quote:

Anonde's taken the challenge of writing a fic in which Zei and Wan have a romantic (I'm guessing) relationship, but the thing is, she's making Wan human.

That's different to developing Wan's personality over time to make him compatible with Zei.

Quote:

All this, really, reminds me of making Kurapika a girl in the Hunter fandom

My sentiments exactly. ::)

Whilst changing Kurapika's gender is in part motivated by anti-yaoi drive, another part of it is that being a girl gives Kurapika more leeway to swoon, to harbour secret crushes, to act all prissy and girly and other feminine behaviour exhibited by teenage girls which would otherwise make Kurapika look like a fool if he retained his male form.

Quote:

That, and not many people are willing to write (or read) about kids participating in a mature relationship at that age.

Then don't write about the kids in a bloody mature relationship! Hell, there's more to fanfics than fluff! [image]

Yomi

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Re: Changing canon characters' forms.
« Reply #3 on Jul 24, 2006, 12:24pm »

Quote:

Well, the thing is, she lapsed the time and the reader basically infers Aang's maturing, as well as her stating some events that have already happened. However, his maturing/change of personality doesn't actually happen in the fic, so he's basically already tossed in with a different-ish personality.

But, I mean, I don't have that big of a quibble with her stuff; she's loads and loads better than the people who just toss them in without any justification at all, like you said. ^^;

- hl

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Re: Changing canon characters' forms.
« Reply #4 on Jul 28, 2006, 11:00pm »

I haven't read her fanfics so I can only say so much 'generally' about mutating characters and to what degree it becomes 'unacceptable'. If you feel uncomfortable with the pace of character development, and therefore don't find it credible and believable, I think you're entitled to form such an opinion.

'Inferring' maturity, or any kind of change, is especially dangerous in my opinon because you're asking the reader to infer fundamental changes to the character based on a couple of hints. What if your hints weren't clear enough and the reader cannot grasp this 'implication'? Is the reader stupid, or has the author not done the job properly?

Whilst we're onto this 'anode' character, I found an interesting series of so-called 'reviews' that she left with your fanfics:

Review for deception

Anonde
2006-06-16
ch 1, reply

Aw... They are so sweet! XD XD XD

Natch. I'm not gonna do constructive criticism. You've gotta develop your inner critic. Don't overdo it though. Feed your inner fan too.

The ending was A-Okay for me and the characterizations too.

She makes a request for con crit sound like a pathetic plea for someone to spoonfeed you and point out your mistakes. If she's as skilled a writer as you make out, that ambiguity, and the ability to draw such an interpretation from a review like this, must be intentional.

And honestly, 'be critical and be proud of your work too' = garbage. What kind of useless drivel is that?! [image]

Review for weak

Anonde
2006-06-17
ch 1, reply

(agrees entirely) Yeah, eventhough I like screaming inside - NO, Zuko! YOu should have let Katara helped Iroh! - Seriously, if Iroh had died, I would have hated Zuko eventhough he really was so out of it.

I like how realistic the writers made that scene out to be eventhough I wanted badly for Zuko and Iroh to finally team up with Aang and co. (sighs)

"I would have hated Zuko eventhough he really was out of it." [image]

Again, meaningless jargon. She expresses more about her disappointment in how the progression of events in the fanfic didn't turn out the way she wanted (like that has any relevance? Unless she elaborated and said it would make it more logical, or interesting, or entertaining...) and addressed you in detatched third person for some oblique reason.

This is a shitty review.

[image]

Review for touch here

Anonde
2006-06-17
ch 1, reply

Yeah, Zuko does seem to be the younger sibling. However, I have to disagree just a bit because I do think he would fight back if Azula did something like that. He showed quite a bit of temper even when young. However... if this happened after their mother disappeared... yeah - now, that would be more in character.

Your character is OOC but your character is not OOC if this occured at another point in time. HL's already mentioned their fricking ages! Shouldn't the reader be able to deduce which point in time she's talking about to decide whether the character is IC or not?!

[image]

Review for The Greatest Teacup

Anonde
2006-06-17
ch 1, reply

You've got me curious. XD I'm going to put this story on alert.

Characterization is A-Okay. Had some trouble with the setting because it's AU, but I think you would expect that. By the way, I've been told that AUs have a bad rep in this fandom so yah... painful (have an AU AtLA fic myself).

I'll be reading and reviewing.

Who cares what you've been told?! [image]

And if you are keen to tell HL that AUs get bad press, care to explain why? Or is every author supposed to accept every piece of rubbish that's a rumour or 'trend' that gets thrown their way without even questioning the merits of such trend? Moronically applying rules without greater consideration of its application is sheer idiocy. To say that it's 'painful' is ambiguous and pathetic. Was HL's fanfic, because of its AU setting, paniful, or is the trend painful because it restricts authors from writing AU? One's a baseless insult, the other gross stupidity.

[image]

Review of sweet like honey

Anonde
2006-06-17
ch 1, reply

Your Azula = scary. XD Very Machiavellean... (heh, I probably misspelled that) The sort to rule by fear though I have to say that I doubt she can threaten Ty Lee or Mai that much without dire consequences.

I think this counts as AU, I think.

Did this girl even read the fanfic? Ty, whoever this is, apparently suffered hideous injuries, descriptions of which fit third-degree burns. At the end of the fic, some bloody animal tramples all over her legs. So tell me, after that kind of torture, excactly what kind of 'dire consequences' can a crippled be expected to drum up?!

I think Azula can threaten away all she wants [image]

Review for Them

Anonde
2006-06-15
ch 1, reply

Woot!

Definitely better. XD (is a greedy for good stuff)

Lol... yeah, I sometimes think drabbles tease readers too much.

I love this, and I don't mind well-written OCs at all. Yeah, yeah, I know that OCs have a bad rep in fanfiction but OCs are a #1 requirement when you wanna be an original story writer.

Believe it or not, I've even married Katara to an OC creation of mind. XD

I love this story. You definitely write descriptions and detail better than I do so I don't think you have to worry about that aspect. I love the way you described rain as little kisses. That's just beautiful!

By the way... am all for Yuu Yan love.

Translation: Your technical style is better than me already so no comments there. No comments about the substance other than to make general observations about the popularity of OCs in fanfiction and some vague useless claptrap about original writers.

[image]

The incredible list goes on - I'd recommend forum goers to also look at the reviews in 10,000 is not enough , By Blood and Iron and in particular Heart on Ice. Taking HL's description that Anode is a capable writer, her reviews are deliberately framed ambiguously to allow someone to interpret a negative message out of it whilst she can 'innocently' claim that she was making a positive remark. Goodness, I don't even use the word 'hate' in my reviews, ever. 'Hate' is the strongest term - you can despise the particular characterisation and 'detest' the particular plot progression, but hate?! What kind of decent reviewer can write but not leave an equally decent review? If Anode evidently knows what makes good fanfiction, then why can't she apply those rules to another fanfic that she's read and leave a respectable review?

I'd be disturbed if I had this type of 'reviewer' filing through each and every one of my fics, even ones, such as the poetry, that they don't understand, but nevertheless feel compelled to comment upon.

I'm only an amateur armchair psychoanalyst, but I can smell the stench of envy or some sort of green-eyed body odour from here.

Yomi

« Last Edit: Jul 28, 2006, 11:01pm by Yomi »

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Re: Changing canon characters' forms.
« Reply #5 on Jul 29, 2006, 2:46am »

Ah, yeah, that was the thing I was going to mention—Anonde has this big, big fixation on review count. She values quantity over quality because, when most readers first look at a fic on FF.Net, they take in the title, summary, and then the review count. So, in the beginning, I tried to review her fics with constructive criticism (I mean, they're pretty good already, so it's not like I can give huge, detailed reviews with concrit and stuff), but she always just says something like she always goes back and edits, so she knows that there's always something wrong with them.

[image]

Obviously all fics will have flaws, no doubt about it; I know that even my best could be polished here and there with the help of a more experienced eye. But to refuse or deprioritize concrit because of that "editing" excuse? [image]

She doesn't care about (and actually seems to welcome) one-liners, as long as they boost up the review count. I mean, sometimes I find myself a bit depressed when a crappier fic has more reviews than mine, but once I actually take a look at the reviews, I really appreciate the fact that, although my fics have fewer reviews, most of them tend to be more detailed than the reviews on the fics with higher review counts.

Also, Anonde's planning on being an author with her original works, but, to be honest, I don't think she'll get very far with it. [image]

I don't really know how to tell her, because she's really sensitive. Like, one of her fics was alluded to in a fanficrants post, and she got huffy about it and put fanficrants on watch, to "discourage her from writing fanfics and concentrate on [her] own work", saying that the community shows how petty fanfic readers are, and how high their expectations are.

Again, [image]

Writing is never going to satisfy everyone. And a lot of the time, people who post on fanficrants have valid arguments.

[image]

Like I said, I've been meaning to tell her this, but I just don't know how to do it. Add that to the fact that she's maybe ten years older than me (from what I gather, she has an office job or something like it, so I'm guessing that that puts her around 20, 25 or so), and it just makes me feel like she's really immature. [image]

Plus, in my fic "10,000 is not enough", I killed off a character at the end because I felt that was what the spirit would do, versus the happy but unrealistic ending others envision. So, instead on commenting on other aspects of my fic, she decides to fix herself on that. And, in another fic, I killed off one of my (original) characters, because I felt that that was the only plausible way to make the plot work and continue, and then she says that I have a thing for killing off professors, because both of them were professors. [image]

And, there are other times when she lets her personal bias get in the way of enjoying a good fic. I mean, I don't mind if you have different beliefs and views on life than I—in fact, that enrichens the feedback, getting it from people with different viewpoints on things—but to demand change or complain about something based on that is a bit uncalled for.

For example, for one of my originals, she left this review:

Reviews For: A Million Little Pieces by helium lost

anonde
2006-06-18
ch1, anon.

You -really- do not have a problem with descriptive style, okay? So I'm not going to even think about criticizing about your writing structure.

However, I'm sorry but I have to fight against the sentiment that suicide is okay, that's it's just okay to give up on life like that. Plus, I feel overall annoyed and can't help but think that Kaitlin and Brian are being overly dramatic.

I live in a third-world country. Everyday, I see people who struggle to live. Despite their dire situation - they have hope that things will improve and they continue on living.

I honestly have to pick hope over just giving up on life. I have to honestly say that the beggars and street children and the women with small children in their arms I see everyday begging for coin is far more inspiring than Brian or Kaitlin.

Brian really have such a problem with how insensitive the world is that he seem to completely forget that there many people who are fighting tooth and nail to change that situation. There are doctors and nurses who have given up their medical careers to go offer free medical care in Africa, for instance.

Sorry, but I really don't like hopeless stories like this. Beautifully written but a lot of 'lessons' it's trying to give to readers just doesn't sit right with me.

Okay, I get that, but, see, that wasn't me supporting suicide, that was a character of mine trying to understand the hardships that someone else is going through, and being consumed by grief because of his ultimate realization that he's human. That, and the fact that it's not supposed to be an inspiring story; it's meant to be something to show a person's development, and how someone can change their life, be it for the better or the worse.

I wouldn't have minded her review so much if it hadn't been for the fact that that was pretty much the only thing she said [image]

And she didn't even elaborate on specific instances where she felt that their characterization was lacking.

- hl

« Last Edit: Jul 29, 2006, 2:58am by helium lost »

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Yomi
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Re: Changing canon characters' forms.
« Reply #6 on Aug 3, 2006, 8:12pm »

From what you've described, this Anonde just sounds like a people pleaser who goes around leaving pointless reviews and hoping people will reciprocate in order to bolster her own counter. You'd think that with the new "Stats" function at ff.net, knowing how many hits your fanfics get should soothe the ego enough.

Quote:

but she always just says something like she always goes back and edits, so she knows that there's always something wrong with them.

If it's ok with you, I'd rather see an actual examle and judge for myself. Sometimes, when I review a fanfic and people tell me that they haven't edited it yet or thoroughly proofed it, I get the feeling they could have spotted my criticisms and points themselves, only they hadn't gotten around to it. Still feels a bit like a waste of my time, because when I critique, I hope to bring up a point about the writing that the author was unaware of. Otherwise why say something that the other party already knows? Is this what you mean?

Quote:

Also, Anonde's planning on being an author with her original works, but, to be honest, I don't think she'll get very far with it. I don't really know how to tell her, because she's really sensitive. Like, one of her fics was alluded to in a fanficrants post, and she got huffy about it and put fanficrants on watch, to "discourage her from writing fanfics and concentrate on [her] own work", saying that the community shows how petty fanfic readers are, and how high their expectations are.

If that's her reaction to a fanficrant entry, I doubt any editor of any publishing company is going to want to work with her. Not unless they want to become potential defendants of an attempted murder charge.

Can you actually cite any instances where detailed and diplomatic criticism has been given and was responded well to?

Has she published (on the net) any original works of her own. I'd be interested in having a read, since you suggest her writing skills are at a decent level.

As for her review of your original fanfic, that'd be me, putting on a Christian Fundie hat and expressly god's disgust for homosexuals on a HisoxIllu fanfic, and how I think the author is sinning and needs to be saved having expressed and written such sentiments between two men.

In these cases, "if you don't like, don't read" validly applies. Did you give any warnings that your fic dealt with themes of suicide?

Yomi

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Re: Changing canon characters' forms.
« Reply #7 on Aug 17, 2006, 9:24am »

Quote:

Here's part of an LJ comment she posted a little while back:

Quote:

(groans) Other writers don't believe me when I tell them how many editing runs I do on my stories. Too many.... This is why I never find reading my own stories relaxing. I -always- find something I want to change/edit/fix. My aunt says the same thing as you - it's a good thing, but it is still crazy. Even she admits that she isn't that obsessive about editing.

Quote:

Here's said fanficrant post: click!

When I read it, I had no idea that it was Anonde's fic, hence my comment. But anyway, you can take a look and decide for yourself there (her username is easytodistract). shes_unreal is a bit notorious for being a bit hotheaded and starting wank in the Avatar fandom (she had a rant about Zuko's eyes being AMBER, not YELLOW, for God's sake, when there is little to no difference—in my eyes, at least). But she had a few good points in there.

The watching/unwatching fanficrants posts are on her journal.

Quote:

Has she published (on the net) any original works of her own. I'd be interested in having a read, since you suggest her writing skills are at a decent level.

No, I don't think so; she mentions them a bit on her LJ, but has never linked to anything (at least, not while I've had her on my friends list).

Quote:

As for her review of your original fanfic, that'd be me, putting on a Christian Fundie hat and expressly god's disgust for homosexuals on a HisoxIllu fanfic, and how I think the author is sinning and needs to be saved having expressed and written such sentiments between two men.

In these cases, "if you don't like, don't read" validly applies. Did you give any warnings that your fic dealt with themes of suicide?

Actually, no, I didn't; it was a bit of a twist at the end, so I didn't really want to spoil it. So I suppose she has a right to be a bit miffed. :shrug:

Anyway, sorry for the delay in replying—I'd meant to, but never got around to -_-;

- hl

« Last Edit: Aug 17, 2006, 9:34am by helium lost »

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